• Can r410a be mixed

    Can r410a be mixed

    You take a chemical that is a gas at normal atmospheric pressures such as R22 and compress it. This makes it very hot because you have the same heat compressed into a smaller space.

    can r410a be mixed

    Then you move the gas through a finned copper coil and cool the gas down, which causes it to condense into a liquid. With R22, for example, this happens when you cool it to about the outdoor temperature. Then we squirt the pure high-pressure liquid refrigerant through a metering orifice into a lower-pressure environment the return or suction side of a compressor and run it through a finned copper evaporator coil.

    At the lower pressure the liquid refrigerant boils or evaporates and this creates the cooling. And since this is almost twice the pressure that the R22 liquid requires to evaporate, R22 clearly cannot evaporate in an environment where the higher-pressure Ra is present.

    So, any R22 in the system that is mixed with Ra returns to the compressor as a liquid. And a rule of nature tells us it is impossible to compress a liquid. Does this hurt anything? Also, the liquid R22 which is a solvent mixes with and dilutes the compressor lubricant, which soon will cause the compressor to seize and stop running. Mixing the gases destroys the compressor.

    can r410a be mixed

    Interestingly, while I was at the AHR Expo in Chicago in January, I stopped to talk to some people at a refrigerant-recovery company and they told me that despite all the phase-outs, they have quite a glut of R22 on hand because nobody is buying it!

    Yes, the price is quite high, but using the proper refrigerant surely is worth the added expense when the alternative is a greatly-reduced system capacity and a much shorter compressor life! I want to hear from you. Tell me how we can improve. He has worked in contracting, for supply houses, and for national equipment manufacturers. He has served as an industry teacher on technical topics, and as a writer and editor. He has conducted seminars on building control standard protocols. He is currently available to speak or teach at industry events.

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    Learn More This website requires certain cookies to work and uses other cookies to help you have the best experience.In many cases, the contamination of recovered refrigerant is avoidable if a few best practices are followed during service and recovery.

    Recovered refrigerant that is determined to be out of specification generally falls into one of two categories:. In the case of the first category — intentional mixing — an obvious suggestion is to avoid mixing different types of refrigerant in the same recovery cylinder.

    Unintentional mixing can certainly occur when systems or previously filled recovery cylinders are not labeled correctly. It is practically impossible to identify a single component refrigerant or refrigerant blend by pressure alone, even though a check of the pressure of a refrigerant against the PT chart will give some clue to its possible identity. For example, a container may have a pressure similar to HCFC, but there are several retrofit blends that may also have a similar pressure.

    The exception might be HFCA, which should actually be pretty easy to identify based on the fact that its pressure is significantly higher than other refrigerants. If you are not sure of the identity of a refrigerant, put it into a clean, empty recovery cylinder. Do not combine an unknown refrigerant with previously recovered refrigerant that you know is not out of specification.

    If a system is not labeled or reliable service records are not available to positively identify the refrigerant in question, then a sample of the refrigerant must be analyzed by a certified laboratory.

    In addition, the Department of Transportation prohibits the transportation of hazardous materials without proper identification of the contents of the cylinder as well as a green nonflammable gas label. Since equipment owners are required to maintain records related to service or disposal of their HVACR equipment, and technicians or service companies are the source for this documentation, proper identification of cylinder contents are the key to compliance with these record keeping requirements.

    In the second instance, the one dealing with cross-contamination between types of refrigerants you encounter every day, the situation can be enough to throw a recovery tank out of spec.

    While it would be ideal to have refrigerant-specific dedicated hoses, gauges, and recovery equipment for each of the products you handle, that may not be practical. This makes it very important to properly purge, clean, or evacuate refrigerant tools every time they are used for a different product. An air conditioner that is charged with 6 pounds of R needs only 2 ounces of another refrigerant to be swept out of a contaminated hose to put it below 98 percent.

    It is entirely possible that a hose or gauge set could contain this much refrigerant if not purged properly after a RA job or a refrigeration service call that used another refrigerant. See Table 1. For more information, go to www. Use the purge cycle on recovery machines to remove residual refrigerant contained in the machine components. Hoses with low-loss fittings or valves can contain a considerable amount of liquid refrigerant.

    Make sure they are safely emptied. Immediately label cylinders with the type of recovered refrigerant and only use the cylinders for the labeled refrigerant. Paying attention to best recovery and service practices that are designed to avoid contamination can save you and your customers the hassle and expense of dealing with out-of-spec refrigerant after it has been returned to a reputable EPA-certified reclaimer. I want to hear from you.

    Tell me how we can improve. This website requires certain cookies to work and uses other cookies to help you have the best experience. By visiting this website, certain cookies have already been set, which you may delete and block.

    By closing this message or continuing to use our site, you agree to the use of cookies.Remember Me? Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 Last Jump to page: Results 1 to 20 of Thread: Mixing R22 and Ra. Thread Tools Show Printable Version. Is this true? He said the real problem is the oils and when you add refrigerant you are not adding oil.

    Is that right? Sounds fishy to me. Thanks in advance for your thoughts. He needs to recover that charge. Then evac and recharge the unit properly.

    R-22 and R-410A – What You Need to Know

    Don't run the system until it's repaired. That company will have to pay to have that refrigerant destroyed. Call your tech back and ask him to put 3LB of a and If you help others then you are a Success. Originally Posted by hvacpope. Originally Posted by jpsmith1cm. Dude was a dumbass. It's sad companies send guys like that out to run service.

    can r410a be mixed

    With those two common gases, he would be in the wrong. But EPA does allow you to mix,if and only if you can't get your hands on the original refrigerant. You gotta be kidding!!!!!!!!!! One way to outthink people is to make them think you think. They'll think you're not really thinking what you're trying to get them to think you think You gotta be friggin kidding!

    So what if the epa allows you to mix? Are you serious? The 2 ref. Is this guy crazy!!!!!!!!!!! The oils are different, the pressures are different, and the copper used to make the coils is different. Never let this close to anyone you care about ever again. We cannot even use the same gauges with these two refrigerants because of the differences.

    This is so crazy it is almost absurd!! Originally Posted by whoward.With the year just days away, it is important to keep in mind some changes that are coming to your home air conditioning system — at least if you own a system that uses R22 refrigerant.

    Tech Tips: How to Properly Charge an R410A SYSTEM

    Granted, these changes started about 20 years ago, but January 1, is an important date in the phase out of R22 refrigerant. If your air conditioner is more than ten years old, then it likely uses R22 refrigerant, and this article has some important information that you need to know. It is commonly called Freon. R is a hydrochlorofluorocarbon, which the EPA has concluded is bad for the environment.

    Due to its effects on the environment, it is being phased out. RA, also called Puron, is the refrigerant which is the main replacement for R Since RA is not a hydrochlorofluorocarbon, it is not harmful to the environment. There are some other important differences between these two refrigerants.

    If you put RA into an R22 system, then the compressor and other components could rupture — completely ruining the system. Another difference between the two refrigerants is that RA is able to absorb more heat than R22 refrigerant. This ability to absorb more heat means that systems using RA refrigerant can operate more efficiently that systems using R See the table below for a short summary of the differences between the two refrigerants.

    Avoid Mixing Recovered Refrigerants

    Due to their differences, R22 and RA refrigerants cannot be mixed. They operate and different pressures, and they use different lubricating oils which makes them incompatible with each other.

    If your unit breaks down and needs some freon after January 1,you will still be able to get R22 refrigerant for it, but you will likely pay a lot of money for the R22 refrigerant. Due to the law of supply and demand, it is getting more expensive to purchase R22 refrigerant.

    Inthe production and importation of R22 will be illegal, so the only R22 that will be available will be refrigerant which was purchased prior to or which was collected from an old system that was being taken out of service. Go outside and locate your air conditioning unit, the condenser unit.

    can r410a be mixed

    This will tell you if you have R22 or RA. See some examples below. R and RA Air Conditioning system. Morgan Inspection Services has been providing home, septic and well inspection services throughout the central Texas area since He can be reached at or at mike morganinspectionservices.

    No article, or portion thereof, may be reproduced or copied without prior written consent of Mike Morgan. Like this post? Share it!As ofthe heating, ventilating and air conditioning HVAC industry is in the process of changing over from ozone-depleting R refrigerant to environmentally-friendlier RA refrigerant. In the case of HVAC systems, conversion requires replacing the R compressor, evaporator and condenser with units designed to run with RA.

    Sometimes the copper lines connecting the components also must be replaced, but it may be possible to clean, flush and dry the lines if they can handle the higher pressures of RA. A crucial part of the conversion process is removing all moisture from the system and ensuring it is free of leaks before charging with the RA.

    The polyethylene-based lubricating oil breaks down in the presence of water. After the new RA mechanical components are installed and all line connections brazed, the installer must connect a vacuum pump to the system, draw it down to a vacuum of microns, and hold it there for several hours, sucking out any traces of water vapor that boil out of the system in this hard vacuum.

    Leaks in the system make it impossible to hold the vacuum until they are found and fixed. Once the system is dry and tight, the technician can charge the system with RA. The extensive system changes are required because R and RA refrigerants are not interchangeable and cannot be mixed in the same HVAC system.

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    These products have very different heat-transfer properties and use chemically incompatible lubricating oils. RA requires a polyester-based synthetic lubricant, while R needs natural petroleum-based oil.

    What this means is that a system designed to use R will fail quickly if filled with RA, and vice versa. For instance, RA builds up system pressure on the high-pressure side that is 50 percent greater than R, putting overwhelming strain on the compressor, lines and seals.

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    If the RA lubricant encounters traces of the R lubricant, it will break down and lose lubricating ability. Under U. At some future point, though, system owners will find it more cost-effective to replace an old, breakdown-prone R system with a new RA HVAC system. Herb Kirchhoff has more than three decades of hands-on experience as an avid garden hobbyist and home handyman. Since retiring from the news business inKirchhoff takes care of a acre rural Michigan lakefront property and applies his experience to his vegetable and flower gardens and home repair and renovation projects.

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    By Herb Kirchhoff Updated December 15, About the Author.I recently read an article in a local HVACR magazine that somewhat addressed this problem, which I guess we all should have foreseen coming because R22 is getting very scarce and its price is skyrocketing.

    According to the article, many contractors have started adding Ra to R22 systems that have experienced refrigerant losses. Apparently, contractors say they have been told by their suppliers and even some refrigerant manufacturers reps that this is a viable plan. The article also states refrigerant manufacturers are simply discouraging the practice.

    I guess I was blindsided by the advent of this happening because I know the great differences between the refrigerants. I just thought no one would be foolish enough to try such a thing. After a couple days, a woman called me. Next, I was told there are no charging charts for unknown blends of refrigerants. But since so few service techs rely on charging charts, that issue is moot. And finally, I was informed Ra will make any rubber seals such as in Schrader valves smaller, again resulting in more leaks.

    Was that it? Does it just come down to more leaks and recovery problems? Understand this: The mineral oil in a compressor has a vapor pressure. Yet, the company spokesperson assured me that mixing Ra and R22 combines their pressures and reaches a lower median.

    Is that true? Not according to the gas laws I used to teach. Rather, the books I taught from say that each refrigerant reaches its own vapor pressure. It will just flood back to reduce the compressor life and will greatly reduce the system capacity. Do I have an answer? No, but I suspect that mixing the two refrigerants is a terrible idea. Meanwhile, hundreds, thousands and soon millions of air conditioners may be contaminated in this way.

    I want to hear from you. Tell me how we can improve. He has worked in contracting, for supply houses, and for national equipment manufacturers. He has served as an industry teacher on technical topics, and as a writer and editor.So, if you replace an R condensing unit with an Ra machine, do you have to replace the evaporator coil? An Ra coil, conversely, at the same conditions will run at PSI. Almost double the pressure.

    At first glance this looks concerning. If you have made it this far and decide that you will reuse the existing R coil, your next step is to consult the attached document from York. Note: cooling capacity and efficiency cannot be guaranteed.

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    But what we can tell you from experience, is we have never had a customer complain about lack of cooling capacity after the change out.

    If you have any questions or would like us to look at a job with you, please call us at ! Register now to receive HVAC design and application tips that are not brand specific, delivered approximately twice per month. Author Recent Posts. Connect on:. Brad Telker. Brad joined the cfm team inand now as Vice President of Sales, Applied Systems Group he focuses on business development, as well as helping contractors and engineers find creative and unique solutions to any size HVAC project.

    Latest posts by Brad Telker see all. How many tons of air conditioning is this DX or… How do you fix a humidity problem? Post navigation Previous Post Previous How do you fix a humidity problem? Next Post Next How do you select and design a custom coil replacement? Search for: Search. Training Events. Latest Posts. Envelope Icon small picture of an envelope signifying email 0.


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